peg_1_05-03-2024_152746: 0:04

Hi, Heather.

heather--she-_1_05-03-2024_152746: 0:07

Hello, how are you?

peg_1_05-03-2024_152746: 0:09

I am so happy that it's Friday.

heather--she-_1_05-03-2024_152746: 0:14

Yes,

peg_1_05-03-2024_152746: 0:15

How are you?

heather--she-_1_05-03-2024_152746: 0:18

doing pretty, pretty good. I, I had a great start today. I got to work with teens, 19 of them, very, quiet, sullen in a intensive outpatient, program. But I get to go in and I get to I teach art and movement. I just want to tell you, it was really funny. So I come in and I always start with some kind of rock and roll music, right? Cause I want to see where they're at, just from our time period. And so I, so today the element, we were talking about the elements. And so the element that we're talking about is air. I get them to do an art project around the element of air and where it is in the body. I started it with Pink Floyd's song on the dark side of the moon that, you know, that goes breathe. Nobody, nobody knew where this music, who this music was, and I'm like, this is fun. But anyway, but it's fun because I get to turn'em onto my music and it's fun because I get to work with teens and I look back in my life. And I just wish that I had someone, you know, that, you know, like myself, and I'm not trying to sing my praises, but that I had that kind of care and treatment back in those days. Because that was the seventies and you didn't have anything like an IOP or PHP, which are these partial hospitalization programs and for kids, for teens. And I certainly would have needed to go to one. How about you Peg?

peg_1_05-03-2024_152746: 1:45

Same. I think I was very, I was a very troubled teen and Because I'd had a very troubled upbringing and did not know how to be in the world as far as relating to other people. Well, first of all, relating to myself. I had no idea who I was. And relating to other people and how to have relationships with other people. Because it hadn't been modeled to me. And when I started drinking, I was like 18. So I, I started relatively late comparatively to some of our compatriots in the rooms, and when I had my first drink, I felt like I was. reborn and I felt like I was very comfortable in my skin and I could have a conversation with people as long as I was still able to talk because then eventually I would drink to the point where I couldn't talk, like I would pass out, blackout. And for me, that was my magic elixir, my magic people elixir. And I finally felt like I fit in and in, high school we drank, right? And I hung out with people that drank and we all drank heavily. So my, destructive drinking didn't really come to light till after I graduated from college. Because through high school and college, that's what we did, right? We drank. So my problem drinking and the behaviors that went with it didn't really get acute until after I graduated. And I remember going to a football game with some friends, and these are the same friends I had partied with before, and I remember we were sitting in this pub outside of the university and we all got a beer, and finished my beer, and I didn't time it, but I'm looking at their beers, And they still had more than half left and I was done and I was ready to order another one. And that's when I knew oh wow, I, I think I might have a problem because I'm drinking much faster than the folks that I used to drink with. They were not alcoholic. So how is it that the little alcoholic fairy drops seeds on some people and they miss other people. Well, they got me. And most of my family and they didn't get my friends. And so my friends would, we're drinking normally. And I, all I could think of Heather at that moment is I cannot wait to order my next beer. And, and then the next one after that, and it was just that phenomenon of craving kicked in and I didn't know what it was at the time. I just knew that I needed more. And I didn't want to look like I was an alcoholic. I didn't want to look like I was alcohol seeking in front of my friends. And at the same time, that was a very, that was a turning point for me. I didn't stop at that point, but I had a little more self awareness And then the rest is history for me, as far as how I overachieved at work and how I would meet people and friends and lovers that were emotionally unavailable because that felt comfortable to me, right? And I couldn't understand why I was a high achiever, because I needed to make sure that I was good enough. And the only way that I was able to do that was to show you that I would success. And I ended up being a success by all accounts as we measure those. And yet I was so unhappy and empty inside and I could not put it together. I couldn't connect the dots like I'm getting everything I thought I wanted. I had a house and a really good job and a career. And A very nice partner at the time. And I thought I had everything I was supposed to have. And I was, I felt very empty and unfulfilled and inadequate.

heather--she-_1_05-03-2024_152746: 6:24

Yeah. So, so there's this like question of like purpose. Like I had that question over and over again, like, and, and it should have been if I, maybe if there was a maturity in your teen years that you ask these questions, who am I, why am I here? And then we answer them in our teen years, if we're awake, I guess is the word we're not drunk, blackout drunk, and we can kind of get through that because I've talked to people who are the. I call them, you know, we kind of have jokes or the normies or the civilians, but they talk about, oh, those, those questions I answered long ago, made decisions on. And I'm like, still, you know, in my, like, 40s. Why am I? Type of thing. But, but, you know, you're making me think about how You know, I started drinking at 15, Peg, and then by 16 my parents had me checked into the psych ward at Bethesda Hospital for an evaluation. And I, I'll never forget that it's because their daughter had completely changed. I was, you know, sleeping during the day. I was out of control. And I remember, that psychiatrist looking at me and he put his glasses down and he goes, I think you may be an alcoholic. And I'm sitting there at 16 years old looking at this guy going, there is, there is no way that I can be an alcoholic. That's what I said to him because I haven't even begun to drink. Okay. And I remember looking at his calendar in the back of his desk. And I don't know why, but I was, I was trying to figure out, I said to myself, well, okay, I was figuring out my ages and I thought, you know, the year 2000 sounds like a good year to evaluate if I am indeed an alcoholic. Now mind you, this was like 1978. So I, I gave myself to the year 2000 and I said, if I have problems, I say this to the guy, if I have problems by the year 2000, quit drinking then. I can't believe I did that. And do you know what? That's when I stopped drinking was year 2000.

peg_1_05-03-2024_152746: 8:24

Was it?

heather--she-_1_05-03-2024_152746: 8:25

That was actually my 40th birthday. I said I was going to stop when I was 40. And so I stopped right at the month before my 41st birthday, but I did it in that year. I took that year to evaluate, go into therapy and find out if indeed I had a drinking problem. And of course I went into therapy for everything but a drinking problem. I had a you problem. It was you were doing this to me. My parents were doing this to me. Everybody else was doing this to me. So, but I did live up to that. I did make that as the marker. So I think that's kind of, funny that I did that with all kinds of consequences. along the way. So many! Three times in jail! You'd think one time would be enough, right? No. How many cars did I wreck? Oh my gosh, over at least 10. How is it possible that we can be like that in our thoughts? You know, that we, we don't, you know, this is just the way it is. You know,

peg_1_05-03-2024_152746: 9:15

For us,

heather--she-_1_05-03-2024_152746: 9:16

you get in trouble.

peg_1_05-03-2024_152746: 9:17

right. And we for me, when I would start drinking and number one, I couldn't stop when I started and I couldn't. I couldn't tell you what, how that evening was going to end up. I couldn't tell you where I was going to end up. I couldn't tell you what version of me you were going to get. And that was something that as soon as the alcohol hit my system, I was that switch got flipped. And I turned into a version of myself I didn't even recognize. And a lot of folks around me didn't recognize who I was. And they would I know friends would ask me, so are you going to drink a lot tonight? No, this was a a girlfriend at the time. And she said, are you going to drink a lot tonight? And I'm like, I don't know. You know, and I knew in my head, I was absolutely going to drink a lot. Because I liked, Because then I felt normal and I felt like a part of and I could have a conversation and I could then begin to do all kinds of inappropriate things that Not only hurt me, but hurt others and so it was this. Yes. I have a problem with alcohol Physiologically, I cannot process it the same way normal drinkers can and I also have This allergy also takes over my thinking so it affects my body and it affects my thinking and and therefore affects my behaviors and so That was the part that was doing me in the behaviors and I wasn't really able to link it up with the drinking. And I just thought that I, I just was off. I was an alien and this is how I was. And I treated people poorly and I did not want to be like that. I didn't want to be that person because I knew down deep that wasn't who I was. Thankfully, I didn't do a lot of drugs because I don't think I would be here, but alcohol got me in enough trouble because alcohol is a drug, I remember going to parties and my friends, some friends would be doing cocaine over in this other room and I'd be like, Oh, whatever. I can't believe they're doing cocaine. And I'm like, on this moral high ground and I'm completely trashed in the other room stinking thinking as they call it. And I got sober when I was 36 and it was 1995. So I had just gotten to the point where I really disliked myself to the point where I didn't want to go on. I didn't have a plan of doing myself in, but I didn't want to be here anymore. I felt no passion for life, no passion for any part of life. That's what my disease was doing. It was sucking the life out of me. And I don't believe that's why my higher power put me here to walk through life. That unhappy and empty. And, I've said many times, this disease is an elk. It is a blessing and a curse. It was a blessing because it got me to a relationship with a higher power who helped me find a better version of myself that I really like today. And that journey has taken me many years, even some years into sobriety, it took some time for those behaviors to change, but I was willing to say, I don't want to do this anymore because if I continue behaving the same way I can stop drinking. But if I'm still miserable. What's wrong with this picture? I said, I might as well drink if I'm going to be miserable and that's when I knew Through the the journey that we've taken through Steps and through the help of other recovering alcoholics How we're able to get to that healing, one step at a time and really heal in layers and learn more about who we are and what we're supposed to be doing here for each other. And that's to love each other and to be of service. But I wasn't able to authentically show up for that until I truly believed that was my purpose here.

heather--she-_1_05-03-2024_152746: 13:59

I was thinking about how alcohol was just one of many things that I used to, feel better. And, that's the thing I, want to keep coming back to is to understand that I, I had no tools of how to deal with emotions, especially uncomfortable emotions. And, it was great to deal with happy emotions and be part of society and drink, right? Because everybody's celebrating with, alcohol. I mean, that was a fun time, but then, there weren't fun times and I would still use it to, try to shift. The feelings and for me, it was everything. I was always trying to find the perfect combination of things to, feel better. I was like a little chemist with my body alcohol. Percocets. All these different things I was just trying to add together to have the perfect combo and oftentimes the driving force was to not throw up see because I always would throw up a lot after drinking so I was trying to figure out how could I control that part of it. Anyway it's just nuts when I think about it. But there were so many other ways that I was seeking ways to feel better. And, one of the things you mentioned too this high achieving. So we're both high achievers. I think when I would get blackout drunk I would do stupid things, I, would say, But I'm really smart because I've got a degree in this and I've got, and I own my house and I have my car. And it was an excuse because I was still kind of showing up, but I was still having this crazy,, secret life of self destruction. And I want to bring up this thing that I kept saying a lot. What's wrong with me because I knew something was wrong with me from the first time I drank and, it was like, liquid courage the solution to all my, all my not fitting in. I was feeling like the outside looking in on the world. I was a military kid. I moved all the time. So it was like the perfect, perfect liquid, for me to, to have, to feel. Again, coming back to that word normal, I guess. It helped me to feel like I could fit in so that what's wrong with me though? Why do I drink so much I throw up? Why do I drink so much I black out? Why do I drink so much I get behind the, wheel of a car? Why do I drink so much and push a cop? I mean, why do I do that? It's my question. And, there's a beautiful book that finally came out. It was a book by Oprah and Dr. Bruce Perry. And the book is called It's called, it's not what's wrong with you, it's what happened to you. And that's, that's kind of what the, the work has had to be and, and I'm, I had to get professional care and I believe that's a very important part of the recovery process is that we get the professional care. We maybe go into group therapy, which is what I did. And then I sought support systems to help me once I went through that process, which was a couple of years. Some people go into treatment programs. I'm actually envious of people that go into treatment programs because I think what people understand is that you can get more work done in that one month than you can in two years out, outpatient. So I'm always encouraging people. In fact, I said to myself when my parents both go, I was going to go to a treatment program. and do the work, but I did the work before they left. So it was pretty cool that I didn't have to do that. I would like to go to a treatment program just to have, rest and relaxation. so while we're going along and, doing this peg, we had a purpose of some sort because we both went to college, I went to college, you went to college and I had to find something to study. I wanted to study is really kind of funny is I studied criminal justice and was I going to become a police officer? So I said to my dad and my mom, I'm going to be an FBI agent. I really thought that would be really good for me. And I started realizing people remember me because when I'm drunk, people, remember the drunk, right? I would never be able to be incognito, people would find me, so I didn't think the FBI would be the best fit. So then I thought, I want to be a detective. That's what I wanted to do. So I had this, like, passion to be a detective. And so I went to college, I started working at a very posh department store. Now, mind you, I'm still drinking, and I'm coming to work hung over, but I'm doing what I think I want to do. But then I'm resentful because they're not paying very, very much, but I'm, I'm still trying, so it's, it's just funny how we still want to be a part of the world, but it's the, addictive strategies block us from really accessing why we're here. What, what are we here? What, what are we supposed to be doing here? What's our, what's our passion and what's our purpose? But we plinked away at it. I mean, what did you go to college for?

peg_1_05-03-2024_152746: 18:28

Communication studies.

heather--she-_1_05-03-2024_152746: 18:30

Okay.

peg_1_05-03-2024_152746: 18:31

I wanted to be on air. I either wanted to do news or some sort of on air work in the broadcast world. And I started off working at Our local radio station just before I went off to college and I loved it and I loved being on the air and playing music and doing all that. It was fun. And I did it in school as well. And I thought, well, this is going to take me either in one or two different directions. It's going to take me in kind of the journalism, On air direction, or it's going to take me into more of a, sales management role. I had also done some selling for the college radio station that I worked at and I was good at it. So I ended up working at a television station in Syracuse, New York. The ABC affiliate in sales. It was like right out of school. So at that time. Going right into television from school was not really done. You paid your dues in radio first, and then you moved into television,? I went right straight to TV. I did a little radio gig, then I got fired and I thought my life was over. And then I got an interview at the ABC affiliate and I got the job. I didn't think I was going to get hired. And so the communication studies piece was my road to the broadcasting world. That's what I wanted to do. And then the broadcast sort of splintered from on air to sales. Cause I was in media sales in television for many years before I started. My own business as a, an ad agency owner. And I started that in New York and then I moved to the DC area and started a business here. That was more, when the web was really starting to come around. And being in the DC area during that time was exciting because things were happening here. And we were able to capitalize on starting website work. And in addition to the marketing work we did. I became well known in more of the marketing circles and I love This work very much because I've been able to help a lot of businesses grow, and now I focus a lot on digital marketing, but I'm also finding as a sober woman today that I do wanna do more.

heather--she-_1_05-03-2024_152746: 21:15

So when you came down here, Peg, were you sober?

peg_1_05-03-2024_152746: 21:18

Yes, Don't think I would've left. New York, had I not gotten sober? Cause I don't think I would have been able to find the strength within myself to make that kind of a move. So I moved from New York to the Washington DC area where I really knew two people and that was it. But I knew I had started to hone some internal feedback loop. Like I was able to start trusting in my own intuition and I did not trust even consider that before I got sober. I would always look to you, to someone else, to tell me who I should be, where I should go, what I should do. And do you like me? And am I enough in your eyes? And you know, that's not how it goes. Because I never thought I was enough. And other people can't give me that kind of worth. But I so desperately wanted it from them. Because I didn't know how to nurture that within myself. And My mother, bless her heart, did the very best she could with what she knew at the time. And at the time, I was neglected. And that also fueled my drinking. It's like, well, if I'm not being really properly cared for by my primary caregiver, then there must be something wrong with me. Because at that point in our growing up, you don't look to the parent and blame the parent because you don't know enough about the world to do that. You're thinking, I must have done something wrong. When you're five and six and seven years old, when your personality is getting formed, that's what I felt. And it took many years of outside help and getting sober and I was able to find me and find myself and stop making me the center of my universe I didn't think much of myself, but I was the only thing I thought about. And I realized that was part of the emptiness I made it all about me and not enough about you and what I could do for you without expecting anything in return. And that change has brought a lot of fulfillment into my life because of turning the attention from me to you. And how can I help you? How can, I be of service to you? And we are taught that we can't keep what we aren't willing to give away. This is what my reality today is. I feel full. And it's a healthy fall. And I'm very happy with the business I've started, I'm, I have this yearning to do more. And I do believe that that's why I go back to this disease can also be a blessing because of the roots in life that we take. And we get rerouted into people, places, and things where we can be of the most service.

heather--she-_1_05-03-2024_152746: 24:39

look at you, you're broadcasting.

peg_1_05-03-2024_152746: 24:41

I am. With you. Yes.

heather--she-_1_05-03-2024_152746: 24:44

you did a whole circle and you came back and I think I always wanted to be a comedian stand up comic because I think we're some of the funniest people ever. We're so funny. I think, part of the turning point for me was when I was told early on in the recovery journey to not take myself so seriously. And the thing is, I think I have found a lot of humor, you know, I, I laughed a lot at, how, and goofy I am at times. But yes, I was just thinking how, it just was such a big thing for me, like, what's my purpose? I would be so drunk, I'd be like crying at the end of the night, you know, and then I'd be like, Oh no, I'm going to be waking up. I'm going to be hung over again. And that's in, and those hangovers, you know, Oh my gosh. Some, some people will say, I never had hangovers. Like my mother, she was a big drinker. I forgot hangovers. I'm like, wow. You know, and the hangovers I had kept me from, I think I mentioned, they kept me from drinking every day. It was a two weeker thing for me. That's why it was so hard for me to, think that I had a drinking problem because I didn't have to drink every day. I was thinking how I was so driven and,, finally the therapist was like, you just, need to stay where your feet are, focus on, being here now and just take baby steps to what you're going to do in your life. But right now, and here's where I was, somehow during the journey, I'm married and I had two kids, Peg. I don't know how that happened. I decided to make motherhood my, main job and do it well. Get involved in PTA, be a teacher's aide, whatever, what it was. I was very involved probably too much involved because my poor children used to call me the warden. I think they were joking, but I was hovering over them, I made their life. My job is another addiction in itself. So a lot of what gets brought in after you let go of the source, like the actual, like the substance and, you know, I had food addiction and alcohol and, all kinds of things. Those substances, a lot of things that start to come up after those are let go of. Like I was told from the beginning, let go of the things in the order that they will kill you. So the drinking and the drugs had to go first. The next thing was well, I still have shopping and issues and you know, people issues, but those don't kill you as fast, but truly can still continue the frequency of addiction. And I will give credit to hearing about that with Tommy Rosen, who's a great yoga, yoga teacher and a recovery person. And I had went to his retreat. It was one of the, one of the things I wanted to do. I went to Costa Rica and I was so thrilled to go and be around 85 people in sobriety and had a sponsy with me and it was so much fun. And, but he, he had these lectures in the afternoon and he talked about this frequency of addiction. And when I started thinking about how that frequency of addiction continues on and different ways and it, and it produces the same results that the actual. Alcohol and the food and all that gave me was I would be, I would wake up and I was, I was talking about waking up because waking up is always hard. I wake up and, and I'm either filled with grace and gratitude or I'm filled with shame, guilt and remorse and that's when I know that I'm actively in a frequency of addiction again. So meanwhile, as I went along with my kids, I found the yoga path and I started going to yoga classes and I started studying yoga and I started understanding something very beautiful. And I'll say it again, is this idea that I am not damaged. Beyond repair, because that's what I carried around, I'm broken and I'm damaged and there's something wrong with me and that has taken a long time and now I laugh at myself because I just understand that I have a mental illness, you know, I have, I have a disease that wants me dead or will settle for me being screwed up. That's it. You know, and so basically what I'm trying to, understand and work with is, is that every day, you know, we, we wake up and we make that choice of how am I going to show up, live my purpose? You know,, have passion, have the right passion, not the passion to find that next drink or that next. human or that next, whatever shopping thing, but finding that passion to, like you said, and it's huge and a lot of people don't understand it, but it is this passion to love. So the yogis talk about this, that inside of us, when we get quiet enough, we get still enough. When we stop being a human doing and we become a human being, we can access the safe sanctuary. The safe haven inside us, it's, called secure attachment where we can actually earn secure attachment by the choices we make by the people we have in our lives. I need securely attached people in my life. I know that in the circles that I've traveled, I just need people to be working on themselves. That's enough. You know, we, may, make mistakes, but I know you're so earnest, Peg, and always trying to be that best version. And I feel safe with you. And, this is where we get tripped up is that we think we can be on this sober path and then be out there with, People that have mental illness that are still using and we get so confused and we don't understand Their behavior because it doesn't make sense. Because they're they're just as sick as we used to be So, I have compassion now for those people, but they're not my first tier of close friends. And that's why I so appreciate you and the years that we have spent together really having a true friendship. That's another purpose is having real relationships, authentic relationships, of course, starting with ourselves, but to have them with others. One of the greatest passions I have are these relationships I have with the people in my life.

peg_1_05-03-2024_152746: 30:35

It's beautiful. Yes. Thank you for your love and friendship. And you know, it's wonderful today because we can be a friend. You know, to have a friend, we have to be a friend. And, and a friend that's not looking for any reciprocity, but also loves the equal give and take. And that equal give and take where I was mostly in my relationships, the giver, and I would give and give and give and give, and I would settle for breadcrumbs. I thought it was fine. You know, I could, live on that. And. This path of healing and wholeness has shown me that I deserve the whole sandwich. I deserve the whole enchilada. Yes. The whole enchilada. And that was a huge shift for me. And it sounds like for you as well. You know, when, we change inside for the better and we heal the true form of who we are comes forth, it can't help but come forth and all the layers that were thrown on us or we threw on ourselves slowly. get removed. I knew I couldn't do this alone. I wanted to do it alone. I was a human doing and I went from alcoholism to workaholism and people pleasing. I was looking outside of myself to have some sense of purpose. And at each turn when I would get to where I thought I was supposed to be in the world. What I thought society said, this is what you're supposed to do to be successful and be worth something. And I, thought I was doing all those things and I would gain some level of success. And I'd be there and I'd be looking around and I'd be like, this is it. Why am I not feeling differently? And then I would drink more. and the more success I had, which is this, paradox, the heavier my drinking. Became it wasn't working. I still felt empty. I still felt inadequate. That's when I started to, to slide backwards. So outside it looked fine, but inside I was imploding because nothing was making me feel better because it wasn't supposed to, you know, the things of this world are not meant to help me feel like a whole human. They're not, it's, something that. Comes from another being That unconditionally loves us. And, and that's where I knew I had to start again, even after stopping my addiction with alcohol. I still had the workaholism, the work addiction.

heather--she-_1_05-03-2024_152746: 33:33

We, we have that ism, right? And we always say to ourselves more will be revealed and, I love that, as we go along, and and we, start to cultivate this kind of softness and gentleness towards ourselves, we become more peaceful, we pause more, we don't react so impulsively anymore. I don't know if this is the aging process involved too, but I think it might be, but I just don't want to hurt my, my nervous system anymore. I don't want to raise my blood pressure over the fact that I dropped, a glass on the floor and broke it. I had a mother that would flip out over that. So I kept that going. And so we, so, so a lot of the journey to As we decide what our purpose is and what our passions are, sometimes we have to, figure out, is this my purpose or is this my parents purpose? Is this something that I've inherited from them? My father was a high ranking military officer and, anytime I would say, Oh, I'm going to do something, he would say, for example, I'm getting my master's degree. We need a PhD in the family. It would be so great to call you Dr. Heather, and I know he did this now to, push me to become better and all I could hear, I'm not good enough. I'm never going to be good enough for you. And it's so funny how all of that changes. I just want to just say this journey, this journey for truth, this journey for, finding our purpose and our peace and why we're here is, one of the most greatest experiences. And I, and I would have missed it. I was so willing to miss it. And now every day I get to wake up and say to the universe, please let me love myself today. Please. Don't let me hurt myself today. Please. Let me be of service to Any person that comes my way, let me please be of service to love and that's it,

peg_1_05-03-2024_152746: 35:25

When we're able to be of service, it does fill us up, fills me up. And I do believe that's why we're here. And I say that. Again, and I said it, I think in our first episode it is about service and love. And until I was able to do that for myself, I, didn't have it to give to you. It wasn't in my ecosystem. And it is today. And it's an authentic caring and, I'm certainly still learning and still make mistakes and still can come from a lot of big ego. No question. And I love people today and I love life and I'm really getting loving healthier relationships because as you had mentioned, Heather, we've become more securely attached. And that attachment, I didn't understand attachment. Until, the last few years. And realizing, the anxious attachment and the dismissive avoidance and the fearful avoidance and the anxiously attached and then securely attached. And I'm like, Oh my God. And I, Looked at that and I was like, I, I was a combination of anxious and dismissive, It depended on who I was with. If they were overly clingy, I started to pull away. And if they were pulling away, I became overly clingy and it was this sort of game and it was a painful one. It was painful.

heather--she-_1_05-03-2024_152746: 37:05

I feel solid in me. I feel inner safety within myself now. And I, have never felt that way. I didn't know what Heather was capable. I mean, Heather was scary to me and now I'm not scary and I love myself and I, can't believe I can even say that. And I feel really true. It feels really good. Of course it takes time, but it just takes time every day to move towards healing and to do everything you can to move towards recovery. Because when we move in a different direction, we're not going sideways. We're going backwards and we're, and, and we, and, and it can be really dangerous. I've never relapsed in 22 years. And I, you're, so you must be

peg_1_05-03-2024_152746: 37:47

29. And that isn't part of my story either. Thankfully, I know it has been part of others journey for whatever their, you know, their path called them to do. And thankfully many have come back and some haven't. And the statistics aren't great because it's a very powerful and cunning thing to do. and ruthless disease in whatever form it takes, whether it's alcoholism or drug addiction or sex addiction or workaholism. It's the same disease, I believe, as soul sickness, that manifests in different ways for, for us, for each of us. For me, it was alcoholism. and workaholism and people pleasing. I think of that as a, as a disease because I lost myself. And I know next time we're going to talk more about developing healthier relationships. And, how we can keep ourselves in that equation. And for me, it was always about the other person and what can I do for them? And I would lose myself and this was well into sobriety. I needed to learn some deeper love within myself, saying, you know, how do I set a boundary? How do I hold that boundary? how do I let someone go? If, it's time, that can still be very hard for me. So the next time we get together. We want to explore that more,? And I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. And I'll share more of my experience around that as well. And we thank you and love you all for joining us today. We will see you next time and continue to be happy, joyous, and free.

heather--she-_1_05-03-2024_152746: 39:33

Love you.

peg_1_05-03-2024_152746: 39:33

Love you.