Peg: 0:00

Welcome to Recovery, the whole enchilada. Ours is a podcast dedicated to you and exploring the many layers of healing and growth within our recovery community. I'm your host McDermott, along with my co-host.

Heather: 0:15

Hagerman

Peg: 0:16

Hello Heather,

Heather: 0:18

Haeg.

Peg: 0:19

and together we share conversations that honor the complete recovery experience. And today's conversation is about making things right, looking back on our past and, seeing where our behaviors, need to be looked at and. With a sponsor or a mentor and how we go about doing that. And, I think really importantly, why we do it. Heather? So

Heather: 0:52

why is very important.

Peg: 0:53

the why is very important.

Heather: 0:54

reasons for the why, but there's some important reasons.

Peg: 0:59

And we've both been through many of these, conversations with others where we had to take respon, I had to take responsibility for my behavior. And, it wasn't just an, I'm sorry'cause I did so many, I'm sorrys while I was using that they were meaningless. It was a hollow apology because I wouldn't change my behavior and. And amends are making things right, which I'll choose to call an amends is about taking responsibility for our behavior and then changing, and that's what's key because then we start to rebuild trust with others. Right?

Heather: 1:47

No, I think that I think the first step for me was to really become humbled. I became humbled by who I was before I sober, and I had to. a really good look at the damage that I had done to others. And so in doing that, it helped me to free myself from pride and arrogance, which is basically how I lived. And I really lived like that person pointing my finger at everybody out there when three fingers were pointing back at me. And I know that we've said that before, but just that whole idea I really think it's, one of the, one of the most, I wanna say, people addiction strategies, I think hold onto this, blaming others like nobody's business. And, you have to pry it out of your hands it will leave claw marks because it's so good to blame everybody, isn't it?

Peg: 2:53

It is.

Heather: 2:54

I hear people now in this world, blaming others and I think to myself, gosh, it must feel so good. But I can't do that. di I, I didn't sign up for that anymore. I'm, on a different path and then I really, need to accept responsibility and acknowledge what I have done, and then I have to make it right and that is very humbling. And its own

Peg: 3:24

huh.

Heather: 3:24

is to make it right. And just like you said, you started this out with, you know, my sorrys had no credibility anymore. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You know. No, you know I have to, be a, and they, and we've said this, but this idea of a living immense, that I live in a way that I don't have to say sorry anymore. I love that. For me, I don't love having to say sorry, but I absolutely say, sorry the sun goes down. I really try not to go to sleep in a situation. I'm talking a daily situation, not a huge life event, but something that I've done during the day that I really could have done better and I really do need to apologize to that person, and it doesn't have to be for what it was, but more for the way I delivered the message oftentimes today. Like I, I was loud and, you know and, maybe I said some swear words, I was right. No but, I have to say, I could have delivered the message better. I could have done it better. And I apologize for raising my voice. There's no need ever anymore on this path to raise our voices at anybody. Truly have had worked hard to let that go.

Peg: 4:42

Yes, I have as well. And I like what you said about, you know, really. Owning whatever it is that you feel you did before the end of the day, before you go to sleep, you know, to keep things right. Because we're talking about making things right, and it's not only about our past, but it is about our present behavior and, thankfully it's changed. Because the same person will drink again. And so this is a real turning point in our evolution and our process where we really rebuild. We, we, build relationships where it's appropriate and we learn how to have relationships with other People. and, you know, I was unaware of my behavior because for me it felt normal to be dishonest. It felt normal to really not show up for people or not be impeccable with my word. It, just felt normal. I didn't think I was doing anything wrong cause I didn't have any other context. And when. I got to the point where I needed to take ownership. I needed to, look at this list of people that I had made with my, sponsor, my mentor, because that's imperative for me. I needed that perspective because sometimes that would take things on that really weren't mine to take on. And in doing that I was really able to determine, you know Who Who it was, what did I do? And does it warrant a, direct amends? Does it warrant a indirect amends, meaning a letter, maybe a call? Definitely not a text. No, I wouldn't do it by text, but I did it the very first time. There was no such thing as texting, but as, as far as like today's. Amends is concerned. I wouldn't I would do a direct amends where it's appropriate and where my sponsor and I have agreed is, safe and where it makes sense, where no more damage won't be done. And then there's living amends. There are amends I made to my family and they had already passed away. And I needed to own my behavior, especially with my mom and all the times I, worried her sick because of my drinking and my behavior, and. Really appreciated her standing by me through all that. And I did. I wrote, her a letter. You know, we have to look at it on a case by case basis, preferably with someone who can give us some objectivity and and then determine what is the right way and the most appropriate way to go about making this right.

Heather: 8:02

You know it's interesting when you do the flip side of it and you begin to look at, people that have harmed you. So I, know I've harmed people and people have harmed me back. And I think it's interesting to say that what happens when people harm me is that I would hold resentments. And that just serves to rob me of my peace and There is that process too. So I mean, I remember when I first was kind of writing my list of people, of how many people I harmed, I found in my little blaming mind, a lot more people harmed me than I harmed them. But that's just because I was. Couldn't go deeper and look more at my part, at the situation. But what I needed to look at just starting with the simplicity of looking at that in holding them hostage in my mind for harming me. I was living and seething and live and living my, going through my life just filled, with resentments. And we know that resentments, what is it, what's the statement? Are the number one the root cause of.

Peg: 9:21

Yes,

Heather: 9:22

addiction in a lot of ways. You know, just it's, the motivator,

Peg: 9:26

right. Chief motivator,

Heather: 9:28

chief motivator is, having these resentments.

Peg: 9:31

right.

Heather: 9:32

but I do I do love what you said because I think that this work can be done whether people are still here or have passed. And I think doing the work on people that have passed can be really important, and I've heard many different ways of people doing that. I've heard people, like you said, writing a letter. I've heard people going to the grave site and reading to the person there. I mean, I've heard many different things, but I think it's really key to kind of just step back. It doesn't matter it looks and what you're doing, the most important thing is that you're setting yourself free. Okay. It's not about and, oftentimes people will tell you, and this is why you need to do this work with another person who, you know who, who, guides you with this. You don't wanna do this alone, but they'll say to you, sometimes it's not received very well. People don't, say, oh, that's so nice, you know? No, people can be really awful and say, I don't care. I don't care about your stupid, you know, whatever you're saying to me I don't, believe you and I don't, I'm not gonna listen to You. I've heard things like that. So regardless of that, in your intention and your heart's intention, you are doing the next right thing to create this space in you isn't filled with resentments, but it's filled with peace that you've done the best that you can. And yes, it feels awful when we hurt people and we have regrets, but we can say to that person, or not living, I could have done better. I wish I had done better and I acknowledge that and, from this point forward, I am going to do better. I have been on the recipient of amends and I have, you know, of course given my amends, but I've had that said to me by a family relative, you know, just basically after the there was outline of the things that person did, they said at the end that I am going to do better. I will be, I will do better from this point forward. Beautiful. You're, I'm not hearing you.

Peg: 11:37

You are making a commitment to change for the better and that you are willing to do better. And you're right, it does set us free

Heather: 11:49

Yeah.

Peg: 11:49

and, you know, going into the amend, if it's a face-to-face, it may not go as we, we hope. That's why for me, it was best not to have. A lot of expectations around a certain hoping for a certain reply, or this wasn't about, this wasn't about my ego or my feelings, frankly, although we don't, we're not a doormat for anybody, but it's looking at, this is how I behaved and that I know my behavior hurt you, and I acknowledge that, and is there anything that I can do to make it right? And as you said, I apologize and I am going to change. I am. I am changing and I'm going to change moving forward. And some people will be like, I. I remember when I first said this to some close friends and, family members, and they were like, oh, you aren't that bad. Come on. And I was like, yeah, I was. And, I would name some specific things that I had talked to my sponsor about. So this wasn't something I orchestrated on my own. It was absolutely thought out and prayed about and. I really had to shine a light on my behavior.'cause again, like I said I didn't really know until I went through this. The, process that we go through to learn about having a higher power and turning things over and learning more about ourselves and our own, I didn't really know who I was. And you know, this has really helped me to become much more. Mindful of who I am and the way I behaved is not who I am. It was who I was when I was drinking. So I had not great behaviors, bad behaviors, but I am not a bad person. And I really had to unpack those two things and not make it about my worth. And as a human, it was about my behavior. I. And that was what I was apologizing for. It's not, I'm not apologizing for being here, I'm apologizing for how I acted toward you or anyone. And the same holds true with whether it's an indirect amends, right? And so with a, guide, a sponsor, you determine after you've made your list, how. What's the most appropriate way to make this amends? And it's a really good exercise to go through because what I thought might be a good idea to do a direct amends, my guide sponsor would say, you know, I don't think that's probably a good idea. Let's look at this possibly being a living immense. And we and she discussed with me why, so that I understood it.'cause this wasn't about self-flagellation. It was about owning and taking responsibility and, owning that with that person and not expecting them to respond in a certain way, not expecting them to be happy about it or embrace it. Some do some. Wanna poo it and say, oh no, it wasn't that bad because they're uncomfortable for whatever reason, but I'm there to, take ownership and how am I gonna change if I don't do that? So I don't take ownership then basically what I'm saying, it was okay to behave the way I did and how will I change if I'm not able to own it and say that was a, that was on me. And there isn't any disrespect that we, have to tolerate either. In this process, it's respectful and it's mindful of what we're saying and, how we're saying it without having any expectations that this person is going to respond in a way that we want them to.

Heather: 16:19

You know, were saying something very important. It was sort of subliminal, but I think I wanna pop it out here is that this part of the recovery process really needs time. Before we do this we need to have feelings, we need to go through. There is a, progression to that leads you to this place and we need to. Be comfortable with you know, a connection to something greater than ourselves. We need to you know, spent time feeling the feelings. I mean it's, in an order for a reason. And, it is, like we mentioned, not to be done alone. and I think that's, vital to know because I have worked with people who were early in this story and they immediately started sorry to their family members and, you know, and they got a lot of know, you're only, you know, you're only one month sober. Yeah. Like that. You've really gotten, you know, you've really, you know, accomplished a lot. You know, don't talk to me, you know and, families. You know, if they're not, if they're not unfortunately seeking help themselves, families will hold resentments too towards you. And it can be a very hard, difficult journey. Could take years for them to trust you again. And that's not easy. Yes, so I, also wanna mention that sometimes it's not just people, but there are things that we've done and to institutions, you know, amends to like being hungover and not making it to work on time. I mean, there's just different behaviors that we've done. And I think one of the greatest stories I heard this was a, young man who he worked in a grocery store and he figured out how to pilfer cases of beer. he would, he would, you know, he had a whole system that he did. And so when he was going over that, his sponsor asked him, said his mentor sponsor asked him how much money do you think you, you stole with a beer? And he kind of figured through the time that he was there that he probably took about a thousand dollars worth. Okay. he was tasked to go back to that store. But, and this is where you, where it's where you follow the guidance of somebody because you don't go back to that store and say, Hey, I. Took this amount and give them the money. that not, might not go Over. So He did is he bought week a couple hundred dollars worth of groceries then turned around and went and put'em back on the shelves and, that's how he gave the money back to the store. So there is, there's ways to do this. keep you safe. And that's really important too. And there are people out there that it's not safe to go back and contact. This is another thing I saw a lot of my, a lot of the young women I've been work, I've worked with them throughout the years who wanna go back'cause they have that intrigue for that boyfriend, and and they find'em on Google or whatever and married with kids and they still wanna go back and say. Oh, I'm so sorry. You know, I was 18 years old and, you know I wanna say sorry for that. No, You know, there, there is that, caveat that we do this unless it harms others. So it is not appropriate to go back and that's why you do need the guidance of someone else. And just like you said, sometimes it's just doing the work right in front of your mentor and just saying it right then and there, and then both of you left releasing it, letting it go.

Peg: 19:48

Yeah, I think, maintaining, like respecting boundaries is another important part of this process because there may be some that they don't want to, they don't wanna, they don't wanna talk to you and, or they don't ever get back to you. You message them and they, just don't get back to you. And to me that is a reply. No replies, a reply and you try a couple of times, but that person may not want to talk to you. And that is a boundary that, you know, we need to respect. I needed to respect. It was like, okay, I didn't really hear back from this partner that I used to be with. And I was very emotionally unavailable during that time. And I wrote a letter. And it felt really good to write that letter and send it and they replied, and I didn't expect them to reply. I really didn't. But it was nice to have them do that. And it was just such a weight off my shoulders, you know? And a lot of the times, amends will come up for me long after I did my first amends. Because I didn't even think of, oh yeah. You know, that, that wasn't very Ooh I think I need to do an amend and then of course I'll talk to my sponsor about it and say, what do you think? Is this something that you think warrants and amends? And how should I do it if, you do think so? And, some my sponsors said, I think you're good there. And others will say, yeah, I think that's probably a good idea. Let's talk more about how to go about it. That's why it's so important to be, to talk, to have a guide. You know, when I first got sober, I made an amends to someone that I used to date and I shared that I had cheated on them and they were really unhappy with me and I did it. My motivation for sharing that was to ease my own guilt and it really hurt that person.

Heather: 22:07

Yeah.

Peg: 22:08

And that is, that taught me a tough lesson that, first of all, I can't, you know, go rogue on my amends and I need to have, I need to have guidance and guardrails and context. So it's so important to have that and and it's, the boundaries are important and then, you know, not. For me, it wasn't about I did it because you did this and I did it because you made me mad over here and there. It's, no, it's not about what they did, it's about what I did. And you're right about the resentments. Like you're like, you think, they were kind of an a-hole to me. I don't know if I really, and I remember my first sponsor said to me, it's not about what they did, it's about what you've done. And I didn't like that because I hadn't really been, I hadn't been made accountable in that way ever. And I was like, oh, it is about me. I don't like what they did. But that's not for this exercise, that's not what's important. It's the important piece is for me to make it right, because how can I move on? And, living a happy, joyous, and free life if I've got these weights weighing me down and I didn't want that. And you know, when we say, when we do these, when we share these amends, we make things right. These promises that we have, we've learned do come true. You know, the promises of a decent and happy and, contented life where we have no more secrets and we're not hiding from anybody and we're not like ducking into a corner when we see someone walking down the street. It's no, I don't have any, I have no nothing to feel ashamed about. As far as my behavior, I've owned it all and I made things right, whether it was indirectly direct, whether it's how I'm living my life now. It and that really does. It is a better, I, more contented way of, living. And I learned, oh, this is how you treat other people. You treat other people because they have feelings. Yeah. Men have feelings. Women have feelings. My pets have feelings. You know, I've had to make amends to my pets that have passed on that I was not the best caregiver because of my, relationship was with alcohol, you know, and I wrote them a little letter. My, my, cat, Tandy. I loved her so much.

Heather: 25:17

cat Vata was my a Vata, my

Peg: 25:21

I know and it's you that those beings warrant and amends and for me, they did. And I'm thankful that I have a, good track record with my pets. And at the same time, there were times when I was using and drinking and irresponsible that I wasn't the best pet parent. I am today. My living amends is with the pets that grace my life now, you know, and I'm so grateful for that ability to see it, differently.

Heather: 26:02

So I, I love that because I think what starts to happen when we do this work, of all. The word that all keeps coming up to mind is there is just such a freedom in that I, think that's the essence of this because it, just gives it, for me, it, it just relieved me from this guilt and shame and this obsession with myself and I wasn't, I was always focused on me and I couldn't see anybody else and that, when I did this work, it helped me to really see what was going on around. My around myself and that I actually began to shift my perspective about my past and started to look at it as a gold mine of experiences that I could share with people and trying to help others through this process and recovery. So it's, that beautiful. It's one of the ninth step promises, and I love that you brought that up because it really is a beautiful, those promises are so beautiful and always. So great to look at because it We will not regret the past nor wish to shut the door on it. And I remember when I first read that, I thought that would be impossible. Impossible. it is so possible when we really do this deep excavation, And this deep dive into, to really looking at our part in our lives, but also doing the next right thing and, and. making apologies to people that we need to

Peg: 27:34

Right.

Heather: 27:37

and, ultimately, you know, to our own selves this is, it. We're on that list and we're doing this work for our own selves. But I just love this other one too. No matter how far down the scale we've gone, we will see how our experience can benefit others and that is another direct result from doing this work. To see, we begin to understand. Nothing is wasted. I almost used to think my life was a, waste. And now I see all my experiences have been great teaching tools for me, but also for the people that I'm, serving and helping along the way. That's the beauty is that we can give back through our shared experience and just say, Hey, I've been there, I've done that, you know and I here's the, way out, here's the solution.

Peg: 28:24

Exactly. I love that. Yeah. And you know, I also had to in, in going through this process, had to forgive, make an amends to myself. I. You know, I had to add myself to that list and and, apologize to myself and forgive myself for the way I treated myself and the disrespect that I showed myself. And you know, I look back the younger versions of me and I, love them, every single one of them. And because they got me here. And you're right, I learned so many lessons that I can look back on and say, yeah that was actually a very good and powerful life lesson. You know, what if I had never gotten that? What if I never realized that and I went the rest of my days? Really not embracing those lessons and the freedom and. We will know a new freedom and a new happiness. And it's so true. I've learned that and I didn't realize it was possible until we did this hard excavating work, like you said. And we have to be willing to do it. I had to be willing to do it, or I was going to, you know, pick up again. And I didn't like who, I didn't like my behaviors then and how I treated people. And I'm like, I don't want to go back there because you know what, Heather? If I stopped working this life process because of my alcoholism. If I stopped it, I would eventually default back to those behaviors. I would, it would just be a matter of time and I don't wanna go there. That's why I need to stay connected to you and to our community and to my hp, my higher power, whom I choose to call God and my sponsor guide, and others that I sponsor. You know, those that I sponsor as well because this isn't about beating ourselves up. That's not productive. It's about taking responsibility. And that's, different. It feels different. I.

Heather: 31:07

you know, we did do one talk on shame and guilt, and I think. The guilt and I'm gonna read this here, and I love this. It, says, guilt for our wrongs can be one of the most deceptive recovery demons to bear because it damages us from the inside where it happily hides. Get rid of the guilt, apologize. Make your amends and let go of them and breathe free.

Peg: 31:37

I love that. Thank you for joining us today on this. Episode of recovery, the whole enchilada. If you connected with today's episode, please share it like it and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. Your feedback helps us shape future conversations like this one, and we love you. And remember that your recovery story with all its flavors and textures and complexities matter deeply. And until next time, stay strong and keep growing. We love you.

Heather: 32:11

Okay. Love you.